1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
hot head engine
Posted by: Ron Light (IP Logged)
Date: September 01, 2005 02:53PM
<HTML>My idea presented was in response to Jean Petitjean's hot head engine, this is an older thread.
I would love some feedback from people that have a strong background in steam and it's application.
There are a few different ways to design this idea and it could be adapted to an auto frame very well.
Not being well versed in proper use of a forum, do i need to make a new post or can there be a link to this thread ?
Thanks Ron Light</HTML>
I would love some feedback from people that have a strong background in steam and it's application.
There are a few different ways to design this idea and it could be adapted to an auto frame very well.
Not being well versed in proper use of a forum, do i need to make a new post or can there be a link to this thread ?
Thanks Ron Light</HTML>
<b>Re: hot head engine</b>
Posted by: JW (IP Logged)
Date: September 16, 2005 04:38PM
<HTML>Hi Ron -
You can link to the older thread just like you would link to another website page. Display the first message of the older thread on your monitor, copy [click on the URL to highlight it, then press {ctrl C} to copy] the URL from the address field of your browser, and paste it {click inside the message form and press crtl V} into your current post.
Enclose this URL in angle brackets [< >] which will turn the URL into an active link after you have posted.
You may want to post a new message on the old thread and include a similar link to your new thread.
Email me if you need help doing this.
JW@stanleysteamers.com</HTML>
You can link to the older thread just like you would link to another website page. Display the first message of the older thread on your monitor, copy [click on the URL to highlight it, then press {ctrl C} to copy] the URL from the address field of your browser, and paste it {click inside the message form and press crtl V} into your current post.
Enclose this URL in angle brackets [< >] which will turn the URL into an active link after you have posted.
You may want to post a new message on the old thread and include a similar link to your new thread.
Email me if you need help doing this.
JW@stanleysteamers.com</HTML>
Re: hot head engine
Posted by: Andy Patterson (IP Logged)
Date: September 22, 2005 07:33PM
<HTML>Hi Ron
I responded to that old thread. Bill Ryan has a working hot head engine. It still has a boiler though. The boiler sets on the engine head.
There is a problem "energy density". You can not heat enough steam to produce the energy required with out heat transfer area. You can't do in a small space. The quanty of heat you need to put into the working fluid to produce 1 HP output is considerable. For every HP you put out you need a corrosponding amount heating surface area to transfer that heat.
I think where the hot head ideas applies is in reducing the amount of supperheat the inlet steam must contain. By adding heat as the steam expands we are in effect supper heating during expansion. That reduces the size of the boiler needed and may avoid the very high supper heat temperatures needed for high expansion ratios.
Andy</HTML>
I responded to that old thread. Bill Ryan has a working hot head engine. It still has a boiler though. The boiler sets on the engine head.
There is a problem "energy density". You can not heat enough steam to produce the energy required with out heat transfer area. You can't do in a small space. The quanty of heat you need to put into the working fluid to produce 1 HP output is considerable. For every HP you put out you need a corrosponding amount heating surface area to transfer that heat.
I think where the hot head ideas applies is in reducing the amount of supperheat the inlet steam must contain. By adding heat as the steam expands we are in effect supper heating during expansion. That reduces the size of the boiler needed and may avoid the very high supper heat temperatures needed for high expansion ratios.
Andy</HTML>
Re: hot head engine
Posted by: Ron Light (IP Logged)
Date: September 22, 2005 07:46PM
<HTML>Andy
Thanks for the reply, I'm wondering if this description is easy enough to understand, when i reread it it did seam a bit vague in some ways, I guess if there are many replies it will become clear if people are seeing my thoughts as i,m hopeing they will.
Ron Light</HTML>
Thanks for the reply, I'm wondering if this description is easy enough to understand, when i reread it it did seam a bit vague in some ways, I guess if there are many replies it will become clear if people are seeing my thoughts as i,m hopeing they will.
Ron Light</HTML>
Re: hot head engine
Posted by: Andy Patterson (IP Logged)
Date: September 23, 2005 04:21PM
<HTML>I was looking at the initial thread post on the Hot Head engine. Yours it a different idea. Yes. It is a bit vague.
We have two Hot Head designs going on by members of SACA that I know of. Both have working engines.
But still in any heat engine you have to consider the heat densities that can be achieved. To get high heat transfer rates/sqft you need high heat densities. You could liik at the boiler comparsons in georges paper on the LaMont boiler elsewere on this site. The LaMont has the highest steaming rate for it's size we have seen in any boiler so far. It probably is the limit with current technology.
Andy</HTML>
We have two Hot Head designs going on by members of SACA that I know of. Both have working engines.
But still in any heat engine you have to consider the heat densities that can be achieved. To get high heat transfer rates/sqft you need high heat densities. You could liik at the boiler comparsons in georges paper on the LaMont boiler elsewere on this site. The LaMont has the highest steaming rate for it's size we have seen in any boiler so far. It probably is the limit with current technology.
Andy</HTML>
Re: hot head engine
Posted by: Ron Light (IP Logged)
Date: September 25, 2005 05:59PM
<HTML>In considering your comment about heat densities a number of things came flooding into my thoughts. At the heart of any design i'm guessing that the first thing that needs to be established is how much energy needs to be moved in or out.
I will be studying the units you have mentioned in your post.
My thoughts in the past have been that a resistance coil, as on a stove top, heats to a cherry red at around (1200+ degrees f). and a mass of steel 10 pounds or so would hold enough heat, to flash about 10 ml of water to steam very quickly.
One other thing is the speed between flywheel cycles ( or compression strokes) would be around 60 cycles per min.
If my thinking is anywhere near right, a tremendous force can be applied too the two 5" pistons at my disposal, the stroke can be designed at as much as 8 or 10 inches if need be for each side.
This central section can be filled with a highly perforated steel sleeve filled with iron balls which would allow a large surface area for heat transfer, when water is injected into it.
The electrical heat coils might need to be portected in some way from the thermal shock of cooler water turning to steam.
The only thing of a fixed value in the above statements are the 5" pistons, they are there because that is what i have on hand.
My original thoughts did not include a boiler as i had planned to have all heat generated by the generator and applied by the coils which recieve a constant supply of electrical energy.
The size of the central section can be of any value based on how much iron mass, and water is needed to create the steam needed . Focus on this section will determine size and values of everything else.
This was supposed to be a short reply but it's hard to condense the thoughts
Thanks
Ron L</HTML>
I will be studying the units you have mentioned in your post.
My thoughts in the past have been that a resistance coil, as on a stove top, heats to a cherry red at around (1200+ degrees f). and a mass of steel 10 pounds or so would hold enough heat, to flash about 10 ml of water to steam very quickly.
One other thing is the speed between flywheel cycles ( or compression strokes) would be around 60 cycles per min.
If my thinking is anywhere near right, a tremendous force can be applied too the two 5" pistons at my disposal, the stroke can be designed at as much as 8 or 10 inches if need be for each side.
This central section can be filled with a highly perforated steel sleeve filled with iron balls which would allow a large surface area for heat transfer, when water is injected into it.
The electrical heat coils might need to be portected in some way from the thermal shock of cooler water turning to steam.
The only thing of a fixed value in the above statements are the 5" pistons, they are there because that is what i have on hand.
My original thoughts did not include a boiler as i had planned to have all heat generated by the generator and applied by the coils which recieve a constant supply of electrical energy.
The size of the central section can be of any value based on how much iron mass, and water is needed to create the steam needed . Focus on this section will determine size and values of everything else.
This was supposed to be a short reply but it's hard to condense the thoughts
Thanks
Ron L</HTML>
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