1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
Kalina cycle
Posted by: ArnoldWalker (IP Logged)
Date: September 18, 2005 12:16PM
<HTML>Anyone ever looked at kalina cycle for use in a modern steamcar design.
It is a little more complex than standard rankine,but looks like it could reduce the condenser(spray style changing ammonia/water mixture ratio) size required in steamcar.While improving the effiecency of the steam system.</HTML>
It is a little more complex than standard rankine,but looks like it could reduce the condenser(spray style changing ammonia/water mixture ratio) size required in steamcar.While improving the effiecency of the steam system.</HTML>
Re: Kalina cycle
Posted by: Bill Gatlin (IP Logged)
Date: September 19, 2005 08:12AM
<HTML>Hello Arnold,
I looked over the Kalina cycle a bit and it turns out that the energy conversion is better than the Rankine cycle at low to very low temperature differentials. That is what makes it so good as a bottoming cycle to a gas turbine or a diesel engine. There are some large generating plants in the southern latitudes on islands that are using the Kalina cycle to generate electricity from the temperature difference of surface sea water and deeper water. There of course isn't much differential but there is a tremendous amount of sea water.
The thermal efficiencys get a lot closer at the higher temperature differentials that an efficient steam engine would need to operate at.
What I was having a hard time getting data on was the characteristics of various mixes of water and ammonia. If the boiling point of ammonia could be raised a bit and still maintain a relativly constant boiling point (these mixes boil at a temperature that varies with amount of water to ammonia that is boiling off, or the faction) then it could be used to eliminate about half of the load on the condenser and boiler. A big increase in efficiency.
There would of course be a compression of the dry ammonia/water vapor mix so consequently not any doubling of efficiency.
Arnold e-mail me if you think you might want to pursue this further as I have a paper on the Kalina by Eva Thorin and some other stuff I could send you. I'm too busy with an engine design to ever pursue it further. Bromine looks good too, but I don't think others might be convinced to drive around with it in their car.
Be well ------------ Bill G.</HTML>
I looked over the Kalina cycle a bit and it turns out that the energy conversion is better than the Rankine cycle at low to very low temperature differentials. That is what makes it so good as a bottoming cycle to a gas turbine or a diesel engine. There are some large generating plants in the southern latitudes on islands that are using the Kalina cycle to generate electricity from the temperature difference of surface sea water and deeper water. There of course isn't much differential but there is a tremendous amount of sea water.
The thermal efficiencys get a lot closer at the higher temperature differentials that an efficient steam engine would need to operate at.
What I was having a hard time getting data on was the characteristics of various mixes of water and ammonia. If the boiling point of ammonia could be raised a bit and still maintain a relativly constant boiling point (these mixes boil at a temperature that varies with amount of water to ammonia that is boiling off, or the faction) then it could be used to eliminate about half of the load on the condenser and boiler. A big increase in efficiency.
There would of course be a compression of the dry ammonia/water vapor mix so consequently not any doubling of efficiency.
Arnold e-mail me if you think you might want to pursue this further as I have a paper on the Kalina by Eva Thorin and some other stuff I could send you. I'm too busy with an engine design to ever pursue it further. Bromine looks good too, but I don't think others might be convinced to drive around with it in their car.
Be well ------------ Bill G.</HTML>
Re: Kalina cycle
Posted by: ArnoldWalker (IP Logged)
Date: September 19, 2005 11:00PM
<HTML>The whole look at kalina cycle,started with me wanting to get a project to help pay for my steam project.
In recent months pizza delivery drivers were facing ,a back against the wall expense ....as if delivery paid very well in the first
So,step one in my sales approach died before it started by mentioning diesels doing pizza delivery.
Same old critics "saw", about why a young guy wouldn't drive a diesel Benz.
Smelly,slow,etc....
$5.00 a dollars/day rent to own for a year didn't appeal to them.
(delivery drivers don't have credit usually)
Some were even insulted at the mention of diesel....
Started tinkering around with WVO from every restaurant in town.
Step two got their attention,but you have to run as a driver COOP...
None of the pizza franchise guys will be caught dead with a WVO diesel.
In the business approval sense to help the drivers out.
To cover the expenses,made same offer of 5dollars/day rent to own for a year(diesel car prices have increased so much in the past 18 months,may need to increase soon.)
plus .75 a gallon for the fuel.Granted I am doing more work on diesels than steam at time .But if that is what it takes to pay for the steam projects so be it.
Any rate,was looking at the rate that the resturant grease was drying up with drivers from 4 pizza companies using my stuff.
Sometimes gets odd looks ,as three company rivals, have drivers roll into Dominos parking lot on emergency refill.(General manager and owner ...ok as long as we don't make a sence about it. Just fill up from the refining trailer out back and quietly leave.)(Didn't hurt to rent a trailer space beside dumpster.)
And kalina looked like a way to ease the supply shortage by improving the mileage on a gallon of grease.WVO pick-up trailer is running far and far as the idea catches on....
In the back of your mind ,was wondering if that would make them half a steam member.</HTML>
In recent months pizza delivery drivers were facing ,a back against the wall expense ....as if delivery paid very well in the first
So,step one in my sales approach died before it started by mentioning diesels doing pizza delivery.
Same old critics "saw", about why a young guy wouldn't drive a diesel Benz.
Smelly,slow,etc....
$5.00 a dollars/day rent to own for a year didn't appeal to them.
(delivery drivers don't have credit usually)
Some were even insulted at the mention of diesel....
Started tinkering around with WVO from every restaurant in town.
Step two got their attention,but you have to run as a driver COOP...
None of the pizza franchise guys will be caught dead with a WVO diesel.
In the business approval sense to help the drivers out.
To cover the expenses,made same offer of 5dollars/day rent to own for a year(diesel car prices have increased so much in the past 18 months,may need to increase soon.)
plus .75 a gallon for the fuel.Granted I am doing more work on diesels than steam at time .But if that is what it takes to pay for the steam projects so be it.
Any rate,was looking at the rate that the resturant grease was drying up with drivers from 4 pizza companies using my stuff.
Sometimes gets odd looks ,as three company rivals, have drivers roll into Dominos parking lot on emergency refill.(General manager and owner ...ok as long as we don't make a sence about it. Just fill up from the refining trailer out back and quietly leave.)(Didn't hurt to rent a trailer space beside dumpster.)
And kalina looked like a way to ease the supply shortage by improving the mileage on a gallon of grease.WVO pick-up trailer is running far and far as the idea catches on....
In the back of your mind ,was wondering if that would make them half a steam member.</HTML>
Re: Kalina cycle
Posted by: ArnoldWalker (IP Logged)
Date: September 19, 2005 11:19PM
<HTML>At this point ,I am not sure about price return on a kalina car.
Rough idea......300D with a 190d engine and a 100hp turbine.
Thinking a 190D drivetrain would deliver 50-60 mpg on kalina.
With 300SD performance.
Since I am talking about poor(pizza) drivers ,paying for this thing ...if I went thru with it.</HTML>
Rough idea......300D with a 190d engine and a 100hp turbine.
Thinking a 190D drivetrain would deliver 50-60 mpg on kalina.
With 300SD performance.
Since I am talking about poor(pizza) drivers ,paying for this thing ...if I went thru with it.</HTML>
Re: Kalina cycle
Posted by: Bill Gatlin (IP Logged)
Date: September 20, 2005 06:00AM
<HTML>Arnold,
For a quick efficiency gain on a diesel engine I believe that by injecting propane into the intake air as with a propane based car has been used. It supposedly much increases the complete burning of the diesel fuel and should be a big improvement with thicker bio-fuels. I found a web site about it a while back but can't find the bookmark now.
Doing these type of conversions whether with their conversion kits or your own, (don't know about patent issues) might be a good income generator since you're already working with the stuff.
I got a hunch that developing a Kalina cycle for an automobile engine or diesel would be a harder row to hoe than the steam engine. Not that the Kalina shouldn't be attempted though but to make faster money I'd look into propane kit conversions it could be quick and dirty tack on efficiency gains.
Best ---------- Bill G.</HTML>
For a quick efficiency gain on a diesel engine I believe that by injecting propane into the intake air as with a propane based car has been used. It supposedly much increases the complete burning of the diesel fuel and should be a big improvement with thicker bio-fuels. I found a web site about it a while back but can't find the bookmark now.
Doing these type of conversions whether with their conversion kits or your own, (don't know about patent issues) might be a good income generator since you're already working with the stuff.
I got a hunch that developing a Kalina cycle for an automobile engine or diesel would be a harder row to hoe than the steam engine. Not that the Kalina shouldn't be attempted though but to make faster money I'd look into propane kit conversions it could be quick and dirty tack on efficiency gains.
Best ---------- Bill G.</HTML>
Re: Kalina cycle
Posted by: ArnoldWalker (IP Logged)
Date: September 20, 2005 06:42AM
<HTML>Powerstroke,Cummin,and just about everbody diesel SUV has a propane
kit for a diesel.Puzzlingly,Benz does not,but a DIY kit to propane inject a diesel wouldn't be a major problem.
Steamers ,probably will do better on deliivery.But diesels were hard enorgh in the short term.Folks have myths and stuff to overcome, before getting to sell a steamcar on a delivery route.Did it with the diesel .....so steamcars overcoming myth may happen in time.</HTML>
kit for a diesel.Puzzlingly,Benz does not,but a DIY kit to propane inject a diesel wouldn't be a major problem.
Steamers ,probably will do better on deliivery.But diesels were hard enorgh in the short term.Folks have myths and stuff to overcome, before getting to sell a steamcar on a delivery route.Did it with the diesel .....so steamcars overcoming myth may happen in time.</HTML>
Re: Kalina cycle
Posted by: Arnold Walker (IP Logged)
Date: September 20, 2005 07:08AM
<HTML>If I did a pure steamer for delivery probably will be something. That will work with resturant garbage about 60% cardboard boxes,20% plastic,and balance foodscraps (old dough and bad orders).
Driver may not like the freg. stoking though......cardboard does have a wick burn soaked in the unusable part of wvo.Burn like you got a can of diesel in the firebox.(diesel don't like cracklings,heavy grease,and unknown
stuff floating in the wvo before you stain it.)Steamers will burn anything.....include the "bioroad tar" at the bottom of the stainer barrels.
I got some from Bar-B-Que pits that was almost straight tallow.</HTML>
Driver may not like the freg. stoking though......cardboard does have a wick burn soaked in the unusable part of wvo.Burn like you got a can of diesel in the firebox.(diesel don't like cracklings,heavy grease,and unknown
stuff floating in the wvo before you stain it.)Steamers will burn anything.....include the "bioroad tar" at the bottom of the stainer barrels.
I got some from Bar-B-Que pits that was almost straight tallow.</HTML>
Re: Kalina cycle
Posted by: Bill Gatlin (IP Logged)
Date: September 24, 2005 05:57AM
<HTML>Arnold,
I am thinking that if a steam powered van were set up to deliver pizza around town then it would be a specialty vehicle and wouldn't neccessarily have to fit all the criteria of a modern steam car.
One it might not really have to have a high top end if it never goes on the highway so maybe about 35 MPH as a top speed would be good enough.
Also it is never too far from home base so it could refill water easily so non condensing would be ok. That would mean then that the exhaust steam could be used for draft inducing.
Also the boiler fire could be exhausted through a system to keep the pizzas and the cabin warm. Add a steam whistle and you got it made, a cute little steam powered delivery van sure to attract many customers.
A similar thing for mail delivery, here people could simply recycle their junk mail back to the postman with a junk-out box under the regular mail box and a good portion of the fuel neccessary to run the delivery truck could be had for free, and home delivered mail could be 80% processed without leaving the front porch. In a pinch the mailman could sort the mail himself and save the trouble of delivering over half of it. No one would be the wiser.
What brings this to mind is the nifty little wood fired steam tractor I got to drive at the steam meet last week in Michigan. That thing was just great, well built and reliable. It ran at 100 - 400 psi and not too high a temperature but I was amazed at how far it went on a couple of small sticks of wood. Enough power and really cool.
Something to think about anyway -------------- Bill G.</HTML>
I am thinking that if a steam powered van were set up to deliver pizza around town then it would be a specialty vehicle and wouldn't neccessarily have to fit all the criteria of a modern steam car.
One it might not really have to have a high top end if it never goes on the highway so maybe about 35 MPH as a top speed would be good enough.
Also it is never too far from home base so it could refill water easily so non condensing would be ok. That would mean then that the exhaust steam could be used for draft inducing.
Also the boiler fire could be exhausted through a system to keep the pizzas and the cabin warm. Add a steam whistle and you got it made, a cute little steam powered delivery van sure to attract many customers.
A similar thing for mail delivery, here people could simply recycle their junk mail back to the postman with a junk-out box under the regular mail box and a good portion of the fuel neccessary to run the delivery truck could be had for free, and home delivered mail could be 80% processed without leaving the front porch. In a pinch the mailman could sort the mail himself and save the trouble of delivering over half of it. No one would be the wiser.
What brings this to mind is the nifty little wood fired steam tractor I got to drive at the steam meet last week in Michigan. That thing was just great, well built and reliable. It ran at 100 - 400 psi and not too high a temperature but I was amazed at how far it went on a couple of small sticks of wood. Enough power and really cool.
Something to think about anyway -------------- Bill G.</HTML>
Re: Kalina cycle
Posted by: Graeme Vagg (IP Logged)
Date: September 24, 2005 09:23AM
<HTML>Bill,
I someone wanted to take your suggestions seriously, some of the ideas like low city speed, product heating facility and steam whistle would be very good. Non condensing is not acceptable for a steamer today. First is wastes a very scare resource - water. Second, water vapour is a greenhouse gas that has more impact than CO2, Third, any exhaust steam discharge that contained a trace of engine lubricating oil would either polute the air or put an oil slick on the road. The EPA would zap you quickly.
Burning junk mail would give a free source of fuel but some plastic products in the envelopes may give toxic fumes when burnt. The burner would need to be checked for environmental compliance if you wanted to do this legally. In many cities domestic incinerators for rubbish disposal have been banned and the burner would be taking this role.
Apart from these issues that are really minor, the concept is good. The idea could be taken to a higher level with wood fired pizzas being cooked during delivery or at the point of sale. This would require the vehicle to be registered at a higher level as a food van with the operator being an experienced chef.
Associated businesses would be a hot dog, sweet corn or hot potato food van. All these require a good supply of low grade heat that can be provided as a free by-product from a steam powered vehicle.
All of the above ideas are definately Food for Thought.
Graeme</HTML>
I someone wanted to take your suggestions seriously, some of the ideas like low city speed, product heating facility and steam whistle would be very good. Non condensing is not acceptable for a steamer today. First is wastes a very scare resource - water. Second, water vapour is a greenhouse gas that has more impact than CO2, Third, any exhaust steam discharge that contained a trace of engine lubricating oil would either polute the air or put an oil slick on the road. The EPA would zap you quickly.
Burning junk mail would give a free source of fuel but some plastic products in the envelopes may give toxic fumes when burnt. The burner would need to be checked for environmental compliance if you wanted to do this legally. In many cities domestic incinerators for rubbish disposal have been banned and the burner would be taking this role.
Apart from these issues that are really minor, the concept is good. The idea could be taken to a higher level with wood fired pizzas being cooked during delivery or at the point of sale. This would require the vehicle to be registered at a higher level as a food van with the operator being an experienced chef.
Associated businesses would be a hot dog, sweet corn or hot potato food van. All these require a good supply of low grade heat that can be provided as a free by-product from a steam powered vehicle.
All of the above ideas are definately Food for Thought.
Graeme</HTML>
Re: Kalina cycle
Posted by: Bill Gatlin (IP Logged)
Date: September 24, 2005 04:45PM
<HTML>Hello Graeme,
I was partially kidding about the junk mail but for a lower temperature steam engine water and plastic to steel bearing surfaces can now be used, eliminating the oil lube problem.
There is a modern plastic bearing material called Peek that works succesfully to 500 deg. F. Another by the same company that is called torlon or somthing like that that is a little tougher still.
I have been kicking around the idea of making the pistons out of the tougher material with the rings integral with the piston by making a cut around the top circumference of the piston top forming a cup seal and stuffing the cut with a narrow high temperature o-ring to effect springyness in the ring. The piston also acts as it's own cross slide as it is a bearing material.
The coefficient of friction to steel is 0.2, rather high, but with water as a lubricant it goes way down. thus the engine would do well expanding just into the wet steam reagon, leaving a few droplets on the cylinder wall.
The plastic also works well against stainless steels, not being bothered by the surface roughness of stainless. This then opens up the possibility of using a stainless steel cylinder liner. It is now easier to start seeing how a small IC engine block could be converted to a two cycle steam engine. Steam exhausted into the water jacket to cool the liners and then into the crank case. Add a small stainless steel cap to the piston top and temps can go well above the 500 deg temp limit of the plastic.
For a small power output engine under 25 HP a flathead design would probably work ok with the poppet valve opening inward (or upward) this puts the valve guide and stem in a cooler spot easier to lubricate.
Best wishes --------- Bill G.</HTML>
I was partially kidding about the junk mail but for a lower temperature steam engine water and plastic to steel bearing surfaces can now be used, eliminating the oil lube problem.
There is a modern plastic bearing material called Peek that works succesfully to 500 deg. F. Another by the same company that is called torlon or somthing like that that is a little tougher still.
I have been kicking around the idea of making the pistons out of the tougher material with the rings integral with the piston by making a cut around the top circumference of the piston top forming a cup seal and stuffing the cut with a narrow high temperature o-ring to effect springyness in the ring. The piston also acts as it's own cross slide as it is a bearing material.
The coefficient of friction to steel is 0.2, rather high, but with water as a lubricant it goes way down. thus the engine would do well expanding just into the wet steam reagon, leaving a few droplets on the cylinder wall.
The plastic also works well against stainless steels, not being bothered by the surface roughness of stainless. This then opens up the possibility of using a stainless steel cylinder liner. It is now easier to start seeing how a small IC engine block could be converted to a two cycle steam engine. Steam exhausted into the water jacket to cool the liners and then into the crank case. Add a small stainless steel cap to the piston top and temps can go well above the 500 deg temp limit of the plastic.
For a small power output engine under 25 HP a flathead design would probably work ok with the poppet valve opening inward (or upward) this puts the valve guide and stem in a cooler spot easier to lubricate.
Best wishes --------- Bill G.</HTML>
Re: Kalina cycle
Posted by: ArnoldWalker (IP Logged)
Date: September 30, 2005 07:14PM
<HTML>That may in time be doable.....Dominoes have an agreement with the local
Bandboosters for pizzas in the stand.(They sell by the slice at $2.00 off our wholesale of $6.00 for a whole 14" pizza)
Football is good 60-80pizzas
Basketball is good for 40-60pizzas
Soccer is good for 24-30 pizzas.
Can't get baseball to eat pizzas for some reason....though they do order
in the stand ,by cell phone,about 1-5pizzas.
Any rate a mobile kitchen near the stand might improve how fresh the pizza is.</HTML>
Bandboosters for pizzas in the stand.(They sell by the slice at $2.00 off our wholesale of $6.00 for a whole 14" pizza)
Football is good 60-80pizzas
Basketball is good for 40-60pizzas
Soccer is good for 24-30 pizzas.
Can't get baseball to eat pizzas for some reason....though they do order
in the stand ,by cell phone,about 1-5pizzas.
Any rate a mobile kitchen near the stand might improve how fresh the pizza is.</HTML>
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