1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
Stanley Cylinder Heads?
Posted by: Kevin Harpham (IP Logged)
Date: September 23, 2005 06:36PM
<HTML>Why did the Stanley have screw in cylinder heads instead of bolt on heads? Does one have an advantage over the other?</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cylinder Heads?
Posted by: Rolly (IP Logged)
Date: September 23, 2005 09:21PM
<HTML>The Stanleys were after a very light engine. With bolt on heads you need a wide flange to bolt the heads to. The cylinders would have to be wide apart. The whole engine becomes heaver. With screw on heads the cylinders can be closer together and built lighter and be just as strong for higher pressure.</HTML>
Rolly
Rolly
Re: Stanley Cylinder Heads?
Posted by: Bill Gatlin (IP Logged)
Date: September 24, 2005 04:48AM
<HTML>Hello Kevin and Rolly
OK, never thought of screwing on the cylinder heads so long bolts seemed the logical way to go. I was wondering about the difference in expansion ratios as the bolts would not see the same temps as the cylinders.
I would really appreciate a drawing of this design feature. What type of threads were used, machine, buttress? What pitch? How was the seal from the cylinder to the head effected?
Anything you could post or scan on this one would really be appreciated.
Thank You ------------- Bill G.</HTML>
OK, never thought of screwing on the cylinder heads so long bolts seemed the logical way to go. I was wondering about the difference in expansion ratios as the bolts would not see the same temps as the cylinders.
I would really appreciate a drawing of this design feature. What type of threads were used, machine, buttress? What pitch? How was the seal from the cylinder to the head effected?
Anything you could post or scan on this one would really be appreciated.
Thank You ------------- Bill G.</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cylinder Heads?
Posted by: Rolly (IP Logged)
Date: September 24, 2005 01:53PM
<HTML>Bill
The Stanley and the Bryan engines had 12 threads per inch. You can get a copy of Bruce Greens 20 HP Stanley drawings from the SACA storeroom. There are other ways to fasten cylinder heads with out bolts and threads.
Rolly</HTML>
Rolly
The Stanley and the Bryan engines had 12 threads per inch. You can get a copy of Bruce Greens 20 HP Stanley drawings from the SACA storeroom. There are other ways to fasten cylinder heads with out bolts and threads.
Rolly</HTML>
Rolly
Re: Stanley Cylinder Heads?
Posted by: Ben in Maine (IP Logged)
Date: September 24, 2005 05:05PM
<HTML>Most of the Stanley heads [not all] are rather thin,, so when a slug of water comes through,,HOPEFULLY the center of the head will blow out first ,, and not remove a cylender by explosive disassembly,,, rather expensive event,, Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cylinder Heads?
Posted by: Kevin Harpham (IP Logged)
Date: September 24, 2005 08:40PM
<HTML>Are there any bad points to the scew in type of cylinder head? I had actualy never given them to much thought until a few days ago, I had it stuck in my head that a bolt on flange type was the better way to go because thats how the Dobles were.
Bill, When you say long bolts are you refering to a construction similiar to an air cylinder with bolts that run the length of the cylinder connecting both heads?
Kevin</HTML>
Bill, When you say long bolts are you refering to a construction similiar to an air cylinder with bolts that run the length of the cylinder connecting both heads?
Kevin</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cylinder Heads?
Posted by: Bill Gatlin (IP Logged)
Date: September 25, 2005 02:14AM
<HTML>Kevin,
Yup.
Although I would have one cylinder- one head. I don't like the idea of connecting the tops of the cylinders together with a common head. Head bolts the length of the cylinder from the heads down into the block.
Bill G.</HTML>
Yup.
Although I would have one cylinder- one head. I don't like the idea of connecting the tops of the cylinders together with a common head. Head bolts the length of the cylinder from the heads down into the block.
Bill G.</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cylinder Heads?
Posted by: Rolly (IP Logged)
Date: September 25, 2005 12:41PM
<HTML>A lot of engines were built, both steam and gas as well as diesel with attached cylinder head; it was cast interracial with the block. On double acting engines you only need a bottom cylinder head. Slide valves or D valves if started correctly rarely cause blown cylinder head with excess water, piston valves more so but started correctly still no problem. Its always human error.</HTML>
Rolly
Rolly
Re: Stanley Cylinder Heads?
Posted by: Ben in Maine (IP Logged)
Date: September 25, 2005 03:26PM
<HTML>Re 2 cylenders and 1 head over both,,the V-W and Porche seemed to get by O-K ,,, Rolls Royce P-I did it too ,,, The D valve and piston valve steamers are pretty much O-K if started in long cutoff ,, the black car passes an unbelevable amount of wet when starting,,,just DONT do it in short cutoff,, when there is advanced timing AND compression,, Of course this comment does not apply to fixed cutoff as in the Mackintosh-Seymore,,[an old engine I had years ago, that had blown its frame in half ] , Just remember the toggle joint press is very similar,,, so don't overwork it ,, Also remember when starting AND manuvering,,, you will pass through short cutoff on the way to the other direction,,haha,,,,careful of the roll back ,, Stanley avoided this on their piston valve engines by virtue of having a ball valve in a passageway back to the steam chest,,,,this avoids using a HEAVY spring to hold it to its seat,, :--} Cheers Ben</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cylinder Heads?
Posted by: Kevin Harpham (IP Logged)
Date: October 09, 2005 10:11PM
<HTML>Thanks Rolly, but that brings up another question. How do you cut the threads in the block?
Bill, I would like to know what you intend to use for cylinders, something off the shelf maybe?
Kevin</HTML>
Bill, I would like to know what you intend to use for cylinders, something off the shelf maybe?
Kevin</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cylinder Heads?
Posted by: Rolly (IP Logged)
Date: October 09, 2005 10:37PM
<HTML>Kevin
It can be done by bolting the cylinder block to a faceplate on a large lathe and cutting the threads or on a horizontal or vertical boring machine equipped for the job. See
[www.stanleysteamers.com]
Piston Valve Cylinder Blocks, it was just done on forty Stanley cylinder blocks.</HTML>
Rolly
It can be done by bolting the cylinder block to a faceplate on a large lathe and cutting the threads or on a horizontal or vertical boring machine equipped for the job. See
[www.stanleysteamers.com]
Piston Valve Cylinder Blocks, it was just done on forty Stanley cylinder blocks.</HTML>
Rolly
Re: Stanley Cylinder Heads?
Posted by: Bill Gatlin (IP Logged)
Date: October 10, 2005 09:18PM
<HTML>Hello Kevin,
Cylinders, nothing off the shelf that I know of, the 1st stage cylinder may be water jacketed similar to the Ultimax to keep ring and lube temperatures down, also the valve guide. No plans for any 1500 degree steam as Doble was contemplating though.
The problem is that as temperatures go up the pressures have to go up also to stay on the same entropy line and end up with an efficient expansion. According to what I've heard, and thought about, much over 1500 lbsa and the Lamont starts looking too much like a monotube. Starts becoming a lot of pressure for the drum also.
I am designing around 950psia and 1200 deg steam. Later on if tests can get that far 1500 psia and 1350 deg would be the higher limit. An efficiency gain of about 3 1/2 %, possibly a lot of material stress to get that.
Screwing in the cylinders to the block and the heads to the cylinders seems like a neat way to go. Did any of the Stanley's have trouble with it? Were the threads the only seal?
Thank You -------- Bill G.</HTML>
Cylinders, nothing off the shelf that I know of, the 1st stage cylinder may be water jacketed similar to the Ultimax to keep ring and lube temperatures down, also the valve guide. No plans for any 1500 degree steam as Doble was contemplating though.
The problem is that as temperatures go up the pressures have to go up also to stay on the same entropy line and end up with an efficient expansion. According to what I've heard, and thought about, much over 1500 lbsa and the Lamont starts looking too much like a monotube. Starts becoming a lot of pressure for the drum also.
I am designing around 950psia and 1200 deg steam. Later on if tests can get that far 1500 psia and 1350 deg would be the higher limit. An efficiency gain of about 3 1/2 %, possibly a lot of material stress to get that.
Screwing in the cylinders to the block and the heads to the cylinders seems like a neat way to go. Did any of the Stanley's have trouble with it? Were the threads the only seal?
Thank You -------- Bill G.</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cylinder Heads?
Posted by: Kevin Harpham (IP Logged)
Date: October 10, 2005 11:06PM
<HTML>Bill, after hearing your idea using long bolts I figured you had a source for some ductile or cast iron cylinders similar to what Peter Barret used. I googled his old supplier but got nothing, probably not in business anymore. Some of these centrifugally spun cylinder liner and sleeve companies might stock such items. I’m going to look a little more for a supplier but let me know if you find one.
I don't know anything about the Stanley but I imagine the cylinder head seats down against a face that steps down to the actual bore that the piston runs in.
Kevin</HTML>
I don't know anything about the Stanley but I imagine the cylinder head seats down against a face that steps down to the actual bore that the piston runs in.
Kevin</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cylinder Heads?
Posted by: SSsssteamer (IP Logged)
Date: October 11, 2005 06:34AM
<HTML>The head's outside flange has a recess that holds packing. The packing seals between the top edge of the last outside thread of the block and the head. There is a small 45 degree champhere at the top of the outside thread on the block that the packing seals against when the head is screwed all of the way tight. It works well for what it was designed for. Go to [www.stanleymotorcarriage.com] and look at the photos of the Stanley engine. The steam chest cover seals the same way as the cylinder heads.</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cylinder Heads?
Posted by: Bill Gatlin (IP Logged)
Date: October 11, 2005 02:13PM
<HTML>Thanks, a picture is worth a thousand woids.
Bill G.</HTML>
Bill G.</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cylinder Heads?
Posted by: Andy Patterson (IP Logged)
Date: October 11, 2005 09:30PM
<HTML>Hi Bill
Interesting you bring up the supper heat and pressure, expansion relation.
Taking an exhaust of 20 PSIA I the initial inlet temperature for expected exhaust quality. The guide lines for piston engines is to have at least 85% quality. There will be some additional temperature drop that needs to be factored in to the initial temperature. I initially thought your temperatures to be a bit high. But after figuring the entropy lines for some ending qualities I see were you are comming from. Been working on my engine and forgot where it would be with out the makeup steam adding heat between stages. But still your temperature is a bit high for common meterials.
Exhaust | Inlet temperatures at:
Quality | 950 PSIA | 1500 PSIA
85% | 699.6 F | 828.8 F
90% | 838.2 F | 980.7
95% | 1007.1 F | 1161.6
100% | 1200.8 F | 1367.1
Andy</HTML>
Interesting you bring up the supper heat and pressure, expansion relation.
Taking an exhaust of 20 PSIA I the initial inlet temperature for expected exhaust quality. The guide lines for piston engines is to have at least 85% quality. There will be some additional temperature drop that needs to be factored in to the initial temperature. I initially thought your temperatures to be a bit high. But after figuring the entropy lines for some ending qualities I see were you are comming from. Been working on my engine and forgot where it would be with out the makeup steam adding heat between stages. But still your temperature is a bit high for common meterials.
Exhaust | Inlet temperatures at:
Quality | 950 PSIA | 1500 PSIA
85% | 699.6 F | 828.8 F
90% | 838.2 F | 980.7
95% | 1007.1 F | 1161.6
100% | 1200.8 F | 1367.1
Andy</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cylinder Heads?
Posted by: Bill Gatlin (IP Logged)
Date: October 12, 2005 01:49AM
<HTML>Hello Andy,
Always nice to hear from You. Sorry we couldn't meet at Berrien Springs. Scott hasn't gotten the problem fixed with the other Phorum yet so I and several others havn't been able to post for a few weeks.
In analizing the Williams and some of the other engines as best I could with available data, it seems that the better of the "older" engines have an "entropy slope" of around 10%. By this I mean that of every 100 BTU that would have been converted to work with an adiabatic expansion between two volumes only 90 goes to produce work and the other 10 to turbulence or heat reabsorbed at the end of the expansion. This would probably be the equivalent of a slightly lower "k" if I were cranking it out with PV equasions. A T-S chart gets close enough by sloping the vertical entropy lines slightly down and to the right for an expansion and slightly up and to the right for a compression.
Anyway I figure that a well designed engine with ample ports and timing and large inlet valves, thermal coatings now available, and such should only loose 5%, so when I figure an expansion or compression that's how I do it.
It is my hope that with the coatings that the heads won't get too hot. Also as mentioned cooling the valve guides and cylinders with saturated water should help with the materials and lube problem at higher temps. But Harry is running 1200 deg in his Cyclone and Bill Ryan is running 1500 deg in his Go-Kart. (bump valve, hot head) So there is hope.
Anyhow 1200 deg is plenty high to start at with a new engine design, I believe any higher temps and pressures would come after everything else is proven out.
Well back to more calculations. Thanks for your handy cycle calculator by the way, it works better than the crippled one I had been using. I downloaded it from your website. Havn't had the time to get into mathcad yet.
Best of Days ----------- Bill G.</HTML>
Always nice to hear from You. Sorry we couldn't meet at Berrien Springs. Scott hasn't gotten the problem fixed with the other Phorum yet so I and several others havn't been able to post for a few weeks.
In analizing the Williams and some of the other engines as best I could with available data, it seems that the better of the "older" engines have an "entropy slope" of around 10%. By this I mean that of every 100 BTU that would have been converted to work with an adiabatic expansion between two volumes only 90 goes to produce work and the other 10 to turbulence or heat reabsorbed at the end of the expansion. This would probably be the equivalent of a slightly lower "k" if I were cranking it out with PV equasions. A T-S chart gets close enough by sloping the vertical entropy lines slightly down and to the right for an expansion and slightly up and to the right for a compression.
Anyway I figure that a well designed engine with ample ports and timing and large inlet valves, thermal coatings now available, and such should only loose 5%, so when I figure an expansion or compression that's how I do it.
It is my hope that with the coatings that the heads won't get too hot. Also as mentioned cooling the valve guides and cylinders with saturated water should help with the materials and lube problem at higher temps. But Harry is running 1200 deg in his Cyclone and Bill Ryan is running 1500 deg in his Go-Kart. (bump valve, hot head) So there is hope.
Anyhow 1200 deg is plenty high to start at with a new engine design, I believe any higher temps and pressures would come after everything else is proven out.
Well back to more calculations. Thanks for your handy cycle calculator by the way, it works better than the crippled one I had been using. I downloaded it from your website. Havn't had the time to get into mathcad yet.
Best of Days ----------- Bill G.</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cylinder Heads?
Posted by: Andy Patterson (IP Logged)
Date: October 12, 2005 04:43PM
<HTML>Hi Bill
In My calculator, there is a bug in the calculation of work produced by the cycle. Found it to late to fix though. The bug only effects the efficiency calculation. The property points are calculated acording to Jerry's paper using a constant enthalpy drop from end of expansion to exhaust pressure. It may be the wrong process to apply. Though my books stated the valves in the engine were examples of throttling process.
I would have to rewrite a lot of the program to get it to work with the new development tool (visual studio). They droped support for long double being the floating point 80 bit native mode and now only support 64 bit floating point format. Long double and double are now the same. The lost precesion causes problems with the steam property calculations.
Andy</HTML>
In My calculator, there is a bug in the calculation of work produced by the cycle. Found it to late to fix though. The bug only effects the efficiency calculation. The property points are calculated acording to Jerry's paper using a constant enthalpy drop from end of expansion to exhaust pressure. It may be the wrong process to apply. Though my books stated the valves in the engine were examples of throttling process.
I would have to rewrite a lot of the program to get it to work with the new development tool (visual studio). They droped support for long double being the floating point 80 bit native mode and now only support 64 bit floating point format. Long double and double are now the same. The lost precesion causes problems with the steam property calculations.
Andy</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cylinder Heads?
Posted by: Kevin Harpham (IP Logged)
Date: October 12, 2005 05:55PM
<HTML>
Bill, if you don't mind sharing, what were you planning on using for cylinders? What type of iron and what grade?
Kevin</HTML>
Bill, if you don't mind sharing, what were you planning on using for cylinders? What type of iron and what grade?
Kevin</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cylinder Heads?
Posted by: Bill Gatlin (IP Logged)
Date: October 12, 2005 08:22PM
<HTML>Hi Andy,
I am using the calculator mostly to get various steam states by inputting two parameters. Yours is really handy because it can do several on one screen, a real time saver. The second stage expansions and compressions take a bit of work as even the second stage is looking like full recompression.
A problem is that condenser conditions (exhaust pressure) are not the same as the end of expansion and vary with the weather and driving history so the amount of recompression changes, not totally with engine parameters. More calculations may show how significant this is, don't know yet. A variable clearance for the second stage is a bit harder to work out than for the first stage ( totally different parameters) so recompression will have to be effected by varying the exhaust valve closing. Haven't figured that one all out yet.
Thanks again ---------- Bill G.</HTML>
I am using the calculator mostly to get various steam states by inputting two parameters. Yours is really handy because it can do several on one screen, a real time saver. The second stage expansions and compressions take a bit of work as even the second stage is looking like full recompression.
A problem is that condenser conditions (exhaust pressure) are not the same as the end of expansion and vary with the weather and driving history so the amount of recompression changes, not totally with engine parameters. More calculations may show how significant this is, don't know yet. A variable clearance for the second stage is a bit harder to work out than for the first stage ( totally different parameters) so recompression will have to be effected by varying the exhaust valve closing. Haven't figured that one all out yet.
Thanks again ---------- Bill G.</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cylinder Heads?
Posted by: Andy Patterson (IP Logged)
Date: October 12, 2005 11:10PM
<HTML>Hi Bill
I know your problem well. I use mathcad to get the initial valve timmings and cylander deminsions. MathCad is the thing to use though. Mush better then my old calculator. And the main reasion I have not taken the time to work on the calculator. It is also a bit limited as I was not planning on ever getting close to the critical point and so never implemented the region that covers the higher pressure range. Figuring compression is sometimes a problem as IFC-67 formulations upper temperature limit was around 1480 F. If I rember correctly I gave the temperature and pressure limits in the help file that is in the zip file along with the program.
Anyway. With MathCad I can automate calculations. I can have it calculate arrays of cycles for instance. I calculate an array of cycle for the high presure stage. And go through that array. Find the max volume at end of expansion. Then figure the steam usage of each cycle normalized to that volume. I calculate a factor for each cycle that would have all operatoring in a common volume. Thats about as clear as mud. OK. The HP stage is going to have some volume though with clearance and stroak variations it may be changing for each cycle, But the volume is a given. Fixed or set by peremeters that deturmin the cycle. The steam density will vary from cycle to cycle. What I need is all the cycles to be normalized so that I can figure the relative steam quanties going to the next stage. I am trying to obtain the next stage size so that it will always use all the steam from the previous stage.
Then I run the second stage. It gets normalezed as well. Only the volume factor is figured in as well. I have the exhaust steam properties from the previous stage at this point. I initially use the exhaust properties as inlet to the second stage. A second run is made in which the inlet is the exhaust of the previous stage mixed with the first stage inlet steam. The first stage inlet steam in this mix is what I call makeup steam. Sense the second stage is designed to as much or more steam then the previous and the more is variable accross the power range there is a different amount of makeup steam required on each cycle. So they are all figured again using the mixture is inlet. This is repeted several times to get stable mix relations. This is repeted again for the third stage.
After all that I have three arrays of cycles. 1 for each stage. If I remember roght my arrays contain 100 cycles. But be more or less as needed.
This is all done in one work sheet. Where I can set the inlet inlet steam properties and several parameters like number of cylanders in each stage etc. What I wind yp with is relative stage cylander sizes and initial inlet and exhaust timmings.
I then use thoes valve timmings for the initial simulation perameters. I then am hand tunning thoes by hand . The simulator is being redone in vissim. From the work I did in MathConex, I can say they will change quite a bit from the static analysis in MathCad. But it give a starting point. And really don't know how close my adjusted simulation values will match real engine either. But at least the static mathcad abalysis gives a worm fealing it will work.
Havn't had mush time to work on it. My home computer has been down for a while. Mother board went out. And the upgrade parts I bought (64 bit AMD processor) wont run win 98 any more and having problms getting WIN 2000 or XP to recognize my old highpoint IDE raid drives. The new board has a different rade chip and siftware. But I had a HighPoint card and it boots up fine in dose. But new OS wount upgrade it or even see it on XPs case. Will have to get a new SATA drive for the new system.
I have been looking at ideas for a test rig. Where the cylander can be tracked. I know there are several problems using a pressure transducer. For one thing the heat isolation as the norm that can not take the steam temperature being used. And that isolation will introduce some delays in sensing. And sense it a loop filled with liquid error will be introduced bt the liquids compressability and/or initia. Temperature is another problem. But I found a non contect sensor that might work at very low speed. It has a settling time of 0.150 seconds.
[www.me-us.com]
At any rate a test rig might be the best way to go. And it would not have to be a complete enngine. I figure a single cylander set up could do the job. Kind of like the artical linked up on another thread on SACA site.</HTML>
I know your problem well. I use mathcad to get the initial valve timmings and cylander deminsions. MathCad is the thing to use though. Mush better then my old calculator. And the main reasion I have not taken the time to work on the calculator. It is also a bit limited as I was not planning on ever getting close to the critical point and so never implemented the region that covers the higher pressure range. Figuring compression is sometimes a problem as IFC-67 formulations upper temperature limit was around 1480 F. If I rember correctly I gave the temperature and pressure limits in the help file that is in the zip file along with the program.
Anyway. With MathCad I can automate calculations. I can have it calculate arrays of cycles for instance. I calculate an array of cycle for the high presure stage. And go through that array. Find the max volume at end of expansion. Then figure the steam usage of each cycle normalized to that volume. I calculate a factor for each cycle that would have all operatoring in a common volume. Thats about as clear as mud. OK. The HP stage is going to have some volume though with clearance and stroak variations it may be changing for each cycle, But the volume is a given. Fixed or set by peremeters that deturmin the cycle. The steam density will vary from cycle to cycle. What I need is all the cycles to be normalized so that I can figure the relative steam quanties going to the next stage. I am trying to obtain the next stage size so that it will always use all the steam from the previous stage.
Then I run the second stage. It gets normalezed as well. Only the volume factor is figured in as well. I have the exhaust steam properties from the previous stage at this point. I initially use the exhaust properties as inlet to the second stage. A second run is made in which the inlet is the exhaust of the previous stage mixed with the first stage inlet steam. The first stage inlet steam in this mix is what I call makeup steam. Sense the second stage is designed to as much or more steam then the previous and the more is variable accross the power range there is a different amount of makeup steam required on each cycle. So they are all figured again using the mixture is inlet. This is repeted several times to get stable mix relations. This is repeted again for the third stage.
After all that I have three arrays of cycles. 1 for each stage. If I remember roght my arrays contain 100 cycles. But be more or less as needed.
This is all done in one work sheet. Where I can set the inlet inlet steam properties and several parameters like number of cylanders in each stage etc. What I wind yp with is relative stage cylander sizes and initial inlet and exhaust timmings.
I then use thoes valve timmings for the initial simulation perameters. I then am hand tunning thoes by hand . The simulator is being redone in vissim. From the work I did in MathConex, I can say they will change quite a bit from the static analysis in MathCad. But it give a starting point. And really don't know how close my adjusted simulation values will match real engine either. But at least the static mathcad abalysis gives a worm fealing it will work.
Havn't had mush time to work on it. My home computer has been down for a while. Mother board went out. And the upgrade parts I bought (64 bit AMD processor) wont run win 98 any more and having problms getting WIN 2000 or XP to recognize my old highpoint IDE raid drives. The new board has a different rade chip and siftware. But I had a HighPoint card and it boots up fine in dose. But new OS wount upgrade it or even see it on XPs case. Will have to get a new SATA drive for the new system.
I have been looking at ideas for a test rig. Where the cylander can be tracked. I know there are several problems using a pressure transducer. For one thing the heat isolation as the norm that can not take the steam temperature being used. And that isolation will introduce some delays in sensing. And sense it a loop filled with liquid error will be introduced bt the liquids compressability and/or initia. Temperature is another problem. But I found a non contect sensor that might work at very low speed. It has a settling time of 0.150 seconds.
[www.me-us.com]
At any rate a test rig might be the best way to go. And it would not have to be a complete enngine. I figure a single cylander set up could do the job. Kind of like the artical linked up on another thread on SACA site.</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cylinder Heads?
Posted by: Bill Gatlin (IP Logged)
Date: October 15, 2005 01:30AM
<HTML>Hi Andy,
Have you put a steam cycle calculator into the mathcad functions? If so could I borrow it? I have been doing the initial cycle calculations by hand an am seeing about three hours per iteration so learning mathcad is looking better all the time.
I am just putting enough losses (I hope) into the expansion and compression cycles, 5%, that any real engine should perform as well or better. What I am finding is that lossy compression cycles affect the total cycle more than I would have thought so that the exhaust conditions are at a higher entropy than I thought they would be. Still not too bad though, a real efficiency machine.
I believe you said that the compounds do tend to get large in order to get that efficiency. Back of my head is working on lessening ring friction as much as possible, hoping that the increase in efficiency won't get eaten by friction.
I think my engines cycles might be easier to figure than yours. Three stages with recievers and charging has gotta be a bear.
Lots of luck with your new mother board. When you get XP running you might find that the anti spyware that microsoft is giving away for free works well. I have been happy with it so far. XP seems to find spyware on its own with no help from the administrator so be very careful once your on the net, anti spyware is a must even before antiviris. (45 min) I didn't have to have 98 loaded to install xP just the disk in a CDrom.
As far as a test rig. There are some really good and cheap occiloscopes on E-Bay. And an analog/digital converter to turn a PC into a decent scope isn't too expensive anymore. A pressure probe that keeps up with the engine cycle or probes are obtainable. What I found is hard to come by also is a temperature probe with a decent response time. If you run across one let us know. The only thing I did find for steam uses stimulated emition to get an almost instant reading but would probably cost too much for our purposes as an infrared spectrometer is part of it.
Scott still hasn't gotten the SACA Phorum problem fixed yet so I can't post on it yet. Neither can Harry I believe.
Best of Days ------------ Bill G.</HTML>
Have you put a steam cycle calculator into the mathcad functions? If so could I borrow it? I have been doing the initial cycle calculations by hand an am seeing about three hours per iteration so learning mathcad is looking better all the time.
I am just putting enough losses (I hope) into the expansion and compression cycles, 5%, that any real engine should perform as well or better. What I am finding is that lossy compression cycles affect the total cycle more than I would have thought so that the exhaust conditions are at a higher entropy than I thought they would be. Still not too bad though, a real efficiency machine.
I believe you said that the compounds do tend to get large in order to get that efficiency. Back of my head is working on lessening ring friction as much as possible, hoping that the increase in efficiency won't get eaten by friction.
I think my engines cycles might be easier to figure than yours. Three stages with recievers and charging has gotta be a bear.
Lots of luck with your new mother board. When you get XP running you might find that the anti spyware that microsoft is giving away for free works well. I have been happy with it so far. XP seems to find spyware on its own with no help from the administrator so be very careful once your on the net, anti spyware is a must even before antiviris. (45 min) I didn't have to have 98 loaded to install xP just the disk in a CDrom.
As far as a test rig. There are some really good and cheap occiloscopes on E-Bay. And an analog/digital converter to turn a PC into a decent scope isn't too expensive anymore. A pressure probe that keeps up with the engine cycle or probes are obtainable. What I found is hard to come by also is a temperature probe with a decent response time. If you run across one let us know. The only thing I did find for steam uses stimulated emition to get an almost instant reading but would probably cost too much for our purposes as an infrared spectrometer is part of it.
Scott still hasn't gotten the SACA Phorum problem fixed yet so I can't post on it yet. Neither can Harry I believe.
Best of Days ------------ Bill G.</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cylinder Heads?
Posted by: SSsssteamer (IP Logged)
Date: October 15, 2005 05:46AM
<HTML>Dear Bill, On the SACA forum, in order to post I had to get a new password from Scott. I was locked out. With the new password, it has been working good for me.</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cylinder Heads?
Posted by: Bill Gatlin (IP Logged)
Date: October 15, 2005 02:55PM
<HTML>Hello,
I did change my password to no avail. I even tryed to reregister but that would have required a new e-mail address. When did you change your password?
--------- Bill G.</HTML>
I did change my password to no avail. I even tryed to reregister but that would have required a new e-mail address. When did you change your password?
--------- Bill G.</HTML>
Re: SACA Website Access
Posted by: SSsssteamer (IP Logged)
Date: October 15, 2005 03:01PM
<HTML>October 4th, '05 was the date of my last new password that was sent out by Scott. It was not my choice of what password was issued but the SACA web sites's.</HTML>
Re: Stanley Cylinder Heads?
Posted by: Bill Gatlin (IP Logged)
Date: October 30, 2005 04:03PM
<HTML>Hello Kevin,
Sorry, on reviewing this thread I realized that I had not answered your question about cylinder materials.
No final selection has been made yet but I am kicking around the use of a DLC on steel for the cylinders and and Total Seal piston rings with a DLC coating also. This would give then a diamond like coating running against a diamond like coating.
Some Googling around has brought up the fact that there are two different types of DLCings, one has hydrogen included in it's matrix and the other doesn't. The one which doesn't is the one to use. What happens is that the exterior side of the diamond coating attracts hydrogen to the partially bonded carbon and forms a layer of bonded hydrogen on the surface.
This then leaves two hydrogen surfaces working against each other, and since they repel each other the friction is very low. It's a good possibility that the engine cylinders then could be lubricated with water or very little oil.
What are you planning to make the pistons out of? I am not finding aluminum strong enough for my second stage and steel is too heavy.
Kevin what are some of the parameters of the engine you are planning?
Best of Days --------- Bill G.</HTML>
Sorry, on reviewing this thread I realized that I had not answered your question about cylinder materials.
No final selection has been made yet but I am kicking around the use of a DLC on steel for the cylinders and and Total Seal piston rings with a DLC coating also. This would give then a diamond like coating running against a diamond like coating.
Some Googling around has brought up the fact that there are two different types of DLCings, one has hydrogen included in it's matrix and the other doesn't. The one which doesn't is the one to use. What happens is that the exterior side of the diamond coating attracts hydrogen to the partially bonded carbon and forms a layer of bonded hydrogen on the surface.
This then leaves two hydrogen surfaces working against each other, and since they repel each other the friction is very low. It's a good possibility that the engine cylinders then could be lubricated with water or very little oil.
What are you planning to make the pistons out of? I am not finding aluminum strong enough for my second stage and steel is too heavy.
Kevin what are some of the parameters of the engine you are planning?
Best of Days --------- Bill G.</HTML>
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