1 Steam Cars : Phorum
General Steam Car topics
Qaudrorhomb engine powerd by steam
Posted by: Hemmer Hans-Peter (IP Logged)
Date: May 19, 2002 05:34PM
<HTML>Have a look to www.quadrorhomb.de and tell me what you think to power
it by steam. It is much better than rotary engine.</HTML>
it by steam. It is much better than rotary engine.</HTML>
Re: Qaudrorhomb engine powerd by steam
Posted by: tom ward (IP Logged)
Date: May 19, 2002 10:50PM
<HTML>I see it as an engine similar to the Canadian quasiturbine. From appearances it shows no advantages over the wankel. Sealing problems look like a serious problem. There are quite a few fascinating designs on the Web but i wouldn't put my money in one until I see a manufacturer putting a product up for sale. Einstein said he had many ideas and spent most of his time throwing out the bad ones.
I favor a reversible turbine with a centrifugal clutch. It uses an efficient, time-tested and proven technology.</HTML>
I favor a reversible turbine with a centrifugal clutch. It uses an efficient, time-tested and proven technology.</HTML>
Re: Qaudrorhomb engine powerd by steam
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: May 20, 2002 07:16AM
<HTML>Hi Hans,
The Quadrohomb is an intriguing engine design, and it will be interesting to see the results when you get it built and running. I think it will be possible to seal it well, and the balance looks good; my main concern is the surface-to-volume ratio and resulting heat transfer between inlet and exhaust steam via the inner surface area of the engine. What displacement will the prototype engine have, and what kind of steam inlet/exhaust valves are planned?
I recommend a visit to the website of the Hochhut Technische Sammlung in Frankfurt-Am-Main:
[www.hochhut-museum.de]
Folks in this forum will find this collection interesting, and also please tell us about the Sammlung's 1903 Stanley! That is an historicaly significant model -- first with direct gear drive to the rear axle, I believe. Is this car in running condition?
Peter</HTML>
The Quadrohomb is an intriguing engine design, and it will be interesting to see the results when you get it built and running. I think it will be possible to seal it well, and the balance looks good; my main concern is the surface-to-volume ratio and resulting heat transfer between inlet and exhaust steam via the inner surface area of the engine. What displacement will the prototype engine have, and what kind of steam inlet/exhaust valves are planned?
I recommend a visit to the website of the Hochhut Technische Sammlung in Frankfurt-Am-Main:
[www.hochhut-museum.de]
Folks in this forum will find this collection interesting, and also please tell us about the Sammlung's 1903 Stanley! That is an historicaly significant model -- first with direct gear drive to the rear axle, I believe. Is this car in running condition?
Peter</HTML>
Re: Qaudrorhomb engine powerd by steam
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: May 20, 2002 01:08PM
<HTML>Peter, et al,
This is another exercise in kinematic oddities.
1) As a gas engine, the cooling problems are just not something that can be overcome. Remember the Wankel has a massive oil cooling system for the insides of the rotors. This has no means to cool the moving parts.
2) As a steam engine and as a gas engine, it has gross leakage paths, severe friction losses in all those hinges and from what I can see, a critical need to be flooded with oil to survive.
3) It has the same surface to volume ratio problem as the Wankel. Not all that serious; but still there. However, any reciprocating steam engine has heat losses from radiation and conduction, plus initial condensation and re-evaporation port and valve losses, minimized if it is a unaflow.
4) I see many problems in trying to get this to work with high pressure and high temperature steam, unlike the Wankel, which is adaptable with some degree of ease.
5) No valving concepts are presented.
No, this is not a feasible engine design to spend any time and money trying to develop. As always with such designs, like that Quasiturbine thing, let the inventor make one, put it on a dynomometer and run it under real world conditions. Then let's see the results.
Jim</HTML>
This is another exercise in kinematic oddities.
1) As a gas engine, the cooling problems are just not something that can be overcome. Remember the Wankel has a massive oil cooling system for the insides of the rotors. This has no means to cool the moving parts.
2) As a steam engine and as a gas engine, it has gross leakage paths, severe friction losses in all those hinges and from what I can see, a critical need to be flooded with oil to survive.
3) It has the same surface to volume ratio problem as the Wankel. Not all that serious; but still there. However, any reciprocating steam engine has heat losses from radiation and conduction, plus initial condensation and re-evaporation port and valve losses, minimized if it is a unaflow.
4) I see many problems in trying to get this to work with high pressure and high temperature steam, unlike the Wankel, which is adaptable with some degree of ease.
5) No valving concepts are presented.
No, this is not a feasible engine design to spend any time and money trying to develop. As always with such designs, like that Quasiturbine thing, let the inventor make one, put it on a dynomometer and run it under real world conditions. Then let's see the results.
Jim</HTML>
Re: Qaudrorhomb engine powerd by steam
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: May 22, 2002 07:34AM
<HTML>Hi Jim,
Building and testing a steam quadrorhomb seems to be the plan. I agree on the cooling issue for an IC quadrorhomb. The only thing that I can figure for cooling an IC version would be a spray of water, oil, or other coolant on the outsides of the moving/pivoting walls. Preferably oil, for lubrication purposes. Filling the entire outer volume with coolant would introduce severe pumping/fluid friction losses. Of course overheating is not an issue for a proper steam engine, so the quadrorhomb may be more suitable for steam use than for IC.
Lubrication for a steam quadrorhomb might have to be pressurized point lube. Depending on seals, this could keep oil in exhaust steam at reasonable levels.
Valves and (especially) seals may be tricky. There are several ways to go, and it should be interesting to see what the developers come up with, and what the results are. As always, "the proof is in the pudding".
For now, I'm sticking with a double-acting piston engine.
Peter</HTML>
Building and testing a steam quadrorhomb seems to be the plan. I agree on the cooling issue for an IC quadrorhomb. The only thing that I can figure for cooling an IC version would be a spray of water, oil, or other coolant on the outsides of the moving/pivoting walls. Preferably oil, for lubrication purposes. Filling the entire outer volume with coolant would introduce severe pumping/fluid friction losses. Of course overheating is not an issue for a proper steam engine, so the quadrorhomb may be more suitable for steam use than for IC.
Lubrication for a steam quadrorhomb might have to be pressurized point lube. Depending on seals, this could keep oil in exhaust steam at reasonable levels.
Valves and (especially) seals may be tricky. There are several ways to go, and it should be interesting to see what the developers come up with, and what the results are. As always, "the proof is in the pudding".
For now, I'm sticking with a double-acting piston engine.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Qaudrorhomb engine powerd by steam
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: May 22, 2002 08:01AM
<HTML>Hi Tom,
>Einstein said he had many ideas and spent
>most of his time throwing out the bad ones.
Great quote! That has certainly been my experience! I would estimate than only 1-2% of my ideas have survived the analytical process.
The challenge with turbines in small sizes is keeping the blow-by and slip reasonable, especially at low and varying loads. A lot of steam blows right thru without doing any work. All kinds of problems have arisen with attempts to use small steam turbines in automobiles. However, it would be great if these problems could be resolved somehow, as a turbine would eliminate the valving and oily-exhaust problems of positive-displacement expanders. Jim's idea of a continuously variable transmission seems to approach a solution, though he reports that there are still problems.
There is an outfit in Canada which claims to have a roadworthy and efficient steam-turbine/electric hybrid drive system for small road vehicles. They had a website too, but I have lost the URL. Maybe a search engine could find it. The turbine runs only at full load/efficiency, and quickly charges up electric batteries to run the vehicle, then cycles off until battery charge drops again. I think it is a parallel-hybrid rather than a tandem-hybrid system. The big problem with electric-battery hybrids is the per-mile averaged cost of the batteries (more costly than the fuel saved). I think a competitive hybrid drivetrain is going to have to use a different method of energy storage, like a flywheel, gas pressure, elastomeric springs, etc..
The claims on their website seemed fishy to me, and, as always with alternative technologies, caveat emptor.
Peter</HTML>
>Einstein said he had many ideas and spent
>most of his time throwing out the bad ones.
Great quote! That has certainly been my experience! I would estimate than only 1-2% of my ideas have survived the analytical process.
The challenge with turbines in small sizes is keeping the blow-by and slip reasonable, especially at low and varying loads. A lot of steam blows right thru without doing any work. All kinds of problems have arisen with attempts to use small steam turbines in automobiles. However, it would be great if these problems could be resolved somehow, as a turbine would eliminate the valving and oily-exhaust problems of positive-displacement expanders. Jim's idea of a continuously variable transmission seems to approach a solution, though he reports that there are still problems.
There is an outfit in Canada which claims to have a roadworthy and efficient steam-turbine/electric hybrid drive system for small road vehicles. They had a website too, but I have lost the URL. Maybe a search engine could find it. The turbine runs only at full load/efficiency, and quickly charges up electric batteries to run the vehicle, then cycles off until battery charge drops again. I think it is a parallel-hybrid rather than a tandem-hybrid system. The big problem with electric-battery hybrids is the per-mile averaged cost of the batteries (more costly than the fuel saved). I think a competitive hybrid drivetrain is going to have to use a different method of energy storage, like a flywheel, gas pressure, elastomeric springs, etc..
The claims on their website seemed fishy to me, and, as always with alternative technologies, caveat emptor.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Qaudrorhomb engine powerd by steam
Posted by: Jim Crank (IP Logged)
Date: May 28, 2002 01:46PM
<HTML>Peter,
As to any turbine:
1) You cannot match the spouting velocity to the blade velocity with any degree of success, the magic 1/2-V ratio for an impulse turbine. Unless you do, the water rate goes sky high, well over 100 lbs/hp/hr. Even the 5 1/4" impulse turbine that I used in the race car, although running at 85,000 rpm, should have run over 130,000.
2) What happens with a monotube steam generator, is that the minute you open the throttle, it drains the boiler and there you sit. I had to use a Salsbury variable belt transmission on the water pump; but running backwards. 1-3 when starting up and down to 1-1 at about 90 mph.
3) In spite of desparate hopes to simplify the steam car, a turbine is out and the positive displacement expander is in.
That multi hinge Qaudrorhomb engine reminds me of a quip that the late Marc Lothrup, engineer and Doble patent attorney, said to me at one of the early SACA meets, when viewing one of these contraptions: "A kinematic oddity that should remain a rarity."
Jim</HTML>
As to any turbine:
1) You cannot match the spouting velocity to the blade velocity with any degree of success, the magic 1/2-V ratio for an impulse turbine. Unless you do, the water rate goes sky high, well over 100 lbs/hp/hr. Even the 5 1/4" impulse turbine that I used in the race car, although running at 85,000 rpm, should have run over 130,000.
2) What happens with a monotube steam generator, is that the minute you open the throttle, it drains the boiler and there you sit. I had to use a Salsbury variable belt transmission on the water pump; but running backwards. 1-3 when starting up and down to 1-1 at about 90 mph.
3) In spite of desparate hopes to simplify the steam car, a turbine is out and the positive displacement expander is in.
That multi hinge Qaudrorhomb engine reminds me of a quip that the late Marc Lothrup, engineer and Doble patent attorney, said to me at one of the early SACA meets, when viewing one of these contraptions: "A kinematic oddity that should remain a rarity."
Jim</HTML>
Re: Qaudrorhomb engine powerd by steam
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: May 29, 2002 02:04AM
<HTML>Hi Jim,
100 lbs/hp/hr, whew! Makes a cold Stanley engine at full admission look stingy! Yeah, I think the only automotive steam turbine with the slightest prayer of success would have to be in a hybrid system. Then, of course, the batteries become the problem.
I have sketched up a 1cyl DA Williams-like engine with a hydraulic hybrid drive system. It is a tandem-only hybrid. Energy is stored by hydraulically compressing gas in an accumulator, and engine runs only at full load & about 1000 rpm, cycling on and off. Continuously variable displacement oil pump and oil motor do the drive work. In theory, this could give 3-4x the fuel mileage of a conventional gas car. The whole concept is full of problems. Just a thought experiment.
If you think the quadrorhomb is an oddity, you should see some of the rotary concepts I have invented in the past. Every one of which went into the roundfile, for one reason or another, usually sealing.
Peter</HTML>
100 lbs/hp/hr, whew! Makes a cold Stanley engine at full admission look stingy! Yeah, I think the only automotive steam turbine with the slightest prayer of success would have to be in a hybrid system. Then, of course, the batteries become the problem.
I have sketched up a 1cyl DA Williams-like engine with a hydraulic hybrid drive system. It is a tandem-only hybrid. Energy is stored by hydraulically compressing gas in an accumulator, and engine runs only at full load & about 1000 rpm, cycling on and off. Continuously variable displacement oil pump and oil motor do the drive work. In theory, this could give 3-4x the fuel mileage of a conventional gas car. The whole concept is full of problems. Just a thought experiment.
If you think the quadrorhomb is an oddity, you should see some of the rotary concepts I have invented in the past. Every one of which went into the roundfile, for one reason or another, usually sealing.
Peter</HTML>
Re: Qaudrorhomb engine powerd by steam
Posted by: Aaron Sasmor (IP Logged)
Date: June 30, 2002 02:37AM
<HTML>Peter:
I was looking for info on the current state of steam engine and steam engine designs to see if the basic concepts had been brought up to date using new technologies. What is this quadrorhomb? any general design sketches? Is it similar to a Wankle cycle just using steam?
Aaron</HTML>
I was looking for info on the current state of steam engine and steam engine designs to see if the basic concepts had been brought up to date using new technologies. What is this quadrorhomb? any general design sketches? Is it similar to a Wankle cycle just using steam?
Aaron</HTML>
Quadrorhomb Clickable Link
Posted by: Peter Brow (IP Logged)
Date: June 30, 2002 04:54AM
<HTML>Hi Aaron,
A picture is worth a thousand words, and an animated gif is worth a million:
[www.quadrorhomb.de]
Peter</HTML>
A picture is worth a thousand words, and an animated gif is worth a million:
[www.quadrorhomb.de]
Peter</HTML>
Re: Quadrorhomb Clickable Link
Posted by: Andreas Vogel (IP Logged)
Date: September 05, 2003 07:26PM
<HTML>
Hello!
After long time I found this discsussion.
Have a look at this link:
[www.quadrorhomb.com]
So, when we have a working prototype we will know more.</HTML>
Hello!
After long time I found this discsussion.
Have a look at this link:
[www.quadrorhomb.com]
So, when we have a working prototype we will know more.</HTML>
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.